BU-308: Availability of Lithium

what’s the future of hybrid cars

We should make the extraction of these rare minerals a priority. 

Forget going to Mars.  We need to set goals and do them.  Unmanned and just for telecommunication should be our only concern with space.

China has set a goal to do it.  We should also be careful to protect our processes since The Energy Department had Chinese spies in the past.  Johnson Controls (a process computer corporation) is building a battery plant in China and here.  This is a situation where they let us build their plant and then copy it. We have been sloppy protecting industrial secrets in the past with corporate CEOs getting pay offs to giving it away. That is bad economic policy.

2012MAR27, TUESDAY

This article is very long but ” very interesting to me ” .
I am 72 years older.
I use an APPLE MacBook Pro computer.
I do NOT ” wash computer PC WINDOWS anymore ” .
I am a dedicated APPLE INC. owner / user.
I am a Canadian.
I was born in city of TORONTO, ONTARIO, CANADA.

signed,
James Elwood SWENOR,

living in the ” CANADIAN HAWAII ” city of VICTORIA, B.C. , CANADA

J. Stevens, the situation is as following:

Rare-earth minerals, are as the name suggests, rare. So rare that the earthian deposits of these minerals cannot keep up with the demand, and can run out within several decades. Going to other planets is one way to keep a steady supply, as planets like mars are likely to contain all sorts of minerals. Harvesting asteroids is also a way to obtain raw materials, an avarage asteroid can contain more iron than the human race has ever used.
So may asteroids contain insane amounts of rare-earth minerals, like lithium or cobalt.
Thus space exploration and exploitation would be an essential way to keep up with the global demand for raw materials.

Then there is also the need for the famed helium-3 isotope, practically non-existant on earth, this rare gas is valued for its potential in nuclear-fusion; a process where 2 atoms are fused to create 1 larger atom, which releases massive amounts of heat, like stars do. This heat can be used to generate electricity very cleanly and efficiently.
The only way to obtain helium-3 in sufficient amounts would be space-exploration and exploitation, as our gas giants contain massive amounts of this gas, enough to be easely harvested using balloons and use some of the gas as fuel for a return flight to earth.

In the end space exploration will benefit us more on the long run, as it will allow us to set up permanent bases on other planets which we could expand for mining- and harvesting operations. And with our rapidly advancing technology this would be even more feasable as a functional space-evelator, would be just a decade or 2 away.

The Battery University is one up on Wikipedia on Lithium Batteries between the two information sources I have me totally consumed even in my sleep (its fun to get excited and learning something so important). I hope to find a niche in the technology. I wanted to say thank you for the knowledge! BB (retired)

James Elwood Swenor, being Canadian and using Apple products won’t make a bit of difference. You will still be subject to China for your technology. You are aware that China is where Apple makes its products, aren’t you? So what you said is irrelevant to the subject of this article. Canada has less known lithium than the United States and an increasing need.

The environment impact of electric car is yet another big hoax being spread in the world. The key is to reduce activity. Obviously, billions of people can’t drive electric cars, as tehreis not enough material on this planet to build those.
  The key to saving the planet is to drive smaller cars, drive less. Encourage work-from-home to reduce commute needs and traffi cjams, so even fewer roads need to be built. These are real earth savers.

I am NOT an Apple user. I am a user of Linux OS and I build my own computers. I also drive a Honda Insight that uses Nickel-Metal batteries, and I am vegan and care about the planet. But, that is not relevant to the availability of lithium. Someone should screen the Comments on this site to keep out the junk. 

This article needs improvement. There are indeed a number of options to lithium for batteries technology but none are commercially available, yet, and those that are viable have not been allowed into the market.

There are now more than 1 billion cars on the road. If they were all to use 1.5kg of lithium for every 1 kwh and they all had 16 kwh batteries it would take 24 billion kilos of lithium if every car on the road was electric. The world’s reserves of lithium is estimated at 38 million metric tons. So, there is probably enough lithium reserves to meet electric car battery needs for some time.

@timo, I’m interested in your resources in terms of amount of lithium availability on Earth.  Is there a way to contact you.  I find batteries and rare materials fascinating subject.  Just want to be better educated.

A bit of FYI-
Right now, the biggest supply of lithium is coming from a big corderilla 13,000ft in the Andes. Believe it or not, I found out about it on Trip Advisor. There is a couple of hotels there and one is made COMPLETELY of salt blocks.
Hotel: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g317033-d854615-r120175979-Hotel_Luna_Salada-Uyuni_Potosi_Department.html
The area:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g297394-d314641-Reviews-Salar_de_Atacama-Antofagasta_Antofagasta_Region.html

http://www.lithiummine.com/lithium-mining-in-chile

PS- I don’t work for Trip Advisor or the mining company.

Time to change to Sodium ion batteries soon

Timo: you say some comments on here should not be allowed, but you said some viable technologies had ‘not been allowed into the market’!!!!

I assure you that if you, me or anyone else had a device that had either twice the energy density or half the cost, you would have hoards of venture capitalists knocking down your door to get on board.

You always make much more money by making and selling something than buying to stop a development.

Numbers talk….

Read about Bacanora Minerals, developing the largest lithium CLAY deposits in the world.
http://www.bacanoraminerals.com

@Steve Richards

I strongly disagree with you.  The oil market has become worth something like a trillion+ dollars year.  Oil went from $25/barrel at end of 90’s to $100+/barrel; for many oil producing companies this was a bonanza and extremely profitable; they could even become more aggressive about claiming write-offs, saving taxes and retaining even more profits.  It made a lot of people, including the Saudis, Chavez, and Bush’s friends, very rich.

If your wealth is tied to the oil industry and batteries will hasten its decline, because oil is over priced compared to other sources of energy, due to its exclusive use in transportation…  then it would be economically (but perhaps not ethically) sensible to sabotage battery development efforts.  This has already happened with electric car related technology/patents in the past, making it more difficult for the industry to get off the ground; understand that there are barriers like charging stations, scaling, and incumbent service industry lobbies.  In other words, unless there is an economically viable path to overcome these barriers, it is difficult to overcome those barriers to a very profitable alternative future; the market doesn’t automatically allow better solutions if there are very difficult barriers to getting there.

Perhaps the Saudis realized the long-term threat to high oil prices; there was no use playing along and keeping oil prices artificially inflated, to the disappointment of the Bushwackers everywhere, no doubt.

@bill

Assuming we even need the market. I’m pretty sure we can do without it and work with a system where one provides to their ability and takes to their need as core idea.

The era of the linear economy is no longer sustainable in an increasingly populated and developed world . We should seek in all processes a way to recycle continuously as in a circle so as to preserve our finite resources. Lithium batteries must be recycled or re-used.

The answer is not just smaller cars,
it’s LESS PEOPLE on the planet.

Steverino_: We can actually handle way more people on this planet. Problem is, we use our resources extremely inefficiently with shitty consumer products and throwaway items. Our entire economic system is so fucked up we can’t handle nearly as many people as we could, for no improvement to life quality for anyone but the extremely rich.

Why focus on availabilty of rare earth materials when there are other more cost efficient ways to create high efficient electric motors as proven with industrial drive systems?

Oil and CNG will be around and useful for a long time. But not for powering ICEs. It’s needed for plastics, making rocket fuel, lubrication a meriad of other applications. Oil suppliers will adjust to this new market. The the transportation industry will change forever as EVs take over on ground, sea, air and space moving people and things. New sources will be found of lithium, rare-earth and other exotic materials. Conservation, smart environmental planning and technology will shift to accommodate larger world populations. There is a bright future for humankind here on Mother Earth and the far reaches of space. So cheer up doom-dayers.

Rich Partain: The problem there is the planning.

Such things require extensive planning only possible under a planned economy. Something I don’t see the United States or any other country other than Cuba, North Korea and China at least co-operate with despite that computers can nowadays prevent disasters that have occured in the past due to planning errors.

There’s indeed a possibly bright future, but with our current economic and political models we will not live to see it.

Remember CO2 is necessary for our plant life, trees to crops to flowers.  So cleaning up the environment is a good thing but don’t take away the essentials of life.
Releasing a large amount of toxic gasses into the air and toxic matter into the earth and water does not make sense.
So the idea of transforming to renewable clean energy still makes sense and has to be part of the long range plan.
Be aware that Li-iron is “old” tecknology and Li-polymer (li-polly) all ready provides lighter batteries by 50% and 3 times the power of li-iron.  If you go to your favourite model shop and compare Li-iron versus Li-polly you can confirm the aforementioned for yourself.

It is also a valid point that Oil, Coal etc spins off materials such as plastics, fiberglass, carbon fibre, lubricants etc which are better uses for oil than burning it.

I enjoy the material you post on you web site

@robin h cotterell

Quite agreed, though too much CO2 isn’t good for plantlife either, just as any more oxygen than 21% is actually harmful to our lungs. CO2 is also the most common greenhouse gas on earth that we can control.

please if possible information about actual material for lithiumbattery

Can anyone tell me how much lithium (kgs) is required to make a Powerwall or a Tesla Roadster? I have read dozens of articles and references, but none of them seem to quantify this rather salient aspect when considering supply and demand (and reserves).

Tesla, Model S uses aprox $40,000 in LI batteries and that translates to $400.00 in LI cost.

Space exploration most certainly is the only way not only to obtain raw materials but for human survival period. Once minimg asteroids starts precious metals will probably become cheap. Theres more platinum and gold out there than we could ever use. Rare Earth elements are only rare on Earth. They will be plentiful also. While asteroids are certainly viable sources of raw materials i have to disagree with the gas giants. Its probable that on jupiter there is an ocean layer made of liquid diamonds which come from diamonds spontaneously created by splitting the four carbon bonds in methane and rain down melting under the pressure heat. Gas giants are the only significant source of He3 fusion material they are also quite unrealistic to ever obtain it from. Besides the enormous gravitational obstacle you also have radiation and magnetic fields practically beyond comprehension. Jupiter is almost a star! Its massive. The presure are just under whats needed for fusion. Its many times larger than all the other planets combined. We are not going to be extracting anything from there anytime in our near or far future. Beyond just resources though space exploration must continue just to insure the continuation of our species. We sit here in the midst of a cosmic shooting gallery with our entire species. Its not if…its when a metoer impact of extinction level will occur. Not to mention the host of other man made or natural catastrophes that will inevitably happen.

Kennyg.

Just saying, Jupiter is not even close to a star. It’s not a brown dwarf it’s just a somewhat above-average gas giant. Liquid diamonds is pretty possible though, and yeah the radiation belt is an issue for anything that isn’t hardened, but for a probe, that’s not difficult. Just use vacuum tubes if you’re desperate.

Anyways, He3 is *everywhere* in the solar system, except earth because we have a rather thick atmosphere with oxygen and all that good stuff. You’ll find lots of it fixed in lunar regolith.

Also space is *really really* empty. We’re not in a shooting gallery at all. We’re like on a 2 by 2 kilometer flat tarmac lot, and occasionally someone somewhere lobs a stone in a random direction.

Well almost is relative. Its only around 20% smaller than the smallest known star….a red dwarf. Brown dwarfs are even smaller. Its thought to have been this solar systems failed binary companion star. Our sun just ate up too much material first. Theres also a theory of a near by supernova disrupting the process that I recently read about. I dont know much about that though. Funny story..years go as they were finding the first exoplanets i thought how funny it was they were surprised that so many gas giants existed so close to their stars. I always expected this as its natural to have multiple dense vortices in a mass of spinning material and surely some will fail quite large. A no brainer i thought especially given our own Jupiters migration from inner to outer solar system. Recently they confirmed this theory by observing an early solar system with multiple dense centers:)
I didnt mean to say that the creation of liquid diamonds other than why they liquify is related to the pressures on Jupiter. Just wanted to clear that up if thats the way it sounded. They are formed due to an electrochemical quirk and then melt under the pressure of the atmosphere as they fall.
You are absolutely correct about he3. I wasn’t aware that moon regolith contained significant amounts of it myself actually. Makes sense that it would though because its the same material as here more or less without the exposure to O. I meant to say most plentiful though in my post…not only. Thanks for pointing that out:) It is in fact the most plentiful source in our solar system as far as i know. Definitely unobtainable though. I dont see that ever becoming a reality but who knows the future;)
Lastly regardless of the anology i was more pointing out the inevitability of a large strike. Im quite aware of the vastness of space none the less onjects are floating around and we are in the gallery. The point was a rebuttal of a previous post saying we should stop wasting money on space exploration. Actually that was the entire point of my post. Everything else was kinda anecdotal;) That would be a very bad idea because if not a strike disaster it will be something else. All our eggs in one basket and all…
Thanks for the correction

Considering the dominant position of oil countries, I feel those people (oil rich countries OPEC) will not allow alternate energy like Lithium batteries in the world for the use of cars and bikes.
But if people become aware of that, they will come forward to support these alternate energy to run motor cars and bikes.using Lithium ion batteries and the like.
From
Madurai
India

Wow, we have a socialist/communist fan, David L (khmere rouge anyone) and a bunch of people talking about “oil companies” bla bla bla…what happened to the “big coal producers” of 19 century?! They got replaced by “oil”..and the rest is history. I wonder if people are dumb or they have a interest to rite things like that.

Electronic Storage System (ESS) here I think it should be Energy Storage System.

“When exposed to water, lithium heats up, changes water into hydrogen and oxygen and burns violently. The creation of hydrogen and oxygen raise the possibility of a spontaneous ignition.”  This is very close but not totally correct.  Lithium reacts with water to produce hydrogen and lithium hydroxide:

2Li + 2H2O = 2LiOH + H2 + HEAT     The heat sets the H2 on fire with O2 in the air.

I believe solar and batteries will need about 1/4th the energy they generate and store, just to make itself. Based on EROI of 9 for solar and 200 watt hours per watt hour of battery capacity, and (only) two sets of batteries for life of solar.

As a Layperson, I simply Cannot Comprehend a Utopian Electric Fantasy when We will Most Definitely Run Out of materials to make batteries in a Mere 10 years, and Lithium Recycling has yet to produce a material Sufficient for Second Use. Thus, EVs will Remain Status Symbols for Elites rather than Utilitarian transportation, most likely in the form of Manned Drones as Opposed to Ground Vehicles and Definitely No Amazon Drone Delivery of an Electrified variety

steverino_ wrote:
The answer is not just smaller cars,
it’s LESS PEOPLE on the planet.

I absolutely agree.